I'd give it 1 high slot, 3 or 4 mids and 2 lows. Base speed, warp speed and alignment time would all be close to Blockade Runners but not quite as good.
Around 300 m/s base speed, 2400-2500 m/s when fit for high speed with MWD, speed mods and Vs in all relevant skills (BRs can easily hit 2700 m/s).
5-6 Au base warp speed and 8-9 Au with 3x HVO-I rigs. BRs are 7.5 Au base with Transport Ships V and no HV0s (10.5 Au with 2x HVO-I).
Under 4 second align time with nanos and/or polycarbons fit but impossible to get under 3 seconds even with perfect skills and all agility modules. BRs can get under 3 seconds.
For cargo capacity 2-3k m3 base and no more than 10k when fit for max cargo would be plenty. All BRs can be fit for over 10k cargo now.
Then there's the question of tank and the big, contentious question of whether or not it's cargo should be unscannable like BRs too.
If like with BRs it's cargo cannot be scanned then it's tank should be about the same as a BR's too. Give it 3 mids, 2 lows and about the same PG and CPU as a BR. Due to having lower T1 resists than a BR's T2 resists that should put it's tank at a bit worse than a BR's even if the extra rig slot is used for tank.
If it's cargo can be scanned then it's tank should be a fair bit better than a BR's. Give it somewhat more PG and CPU, just enough to fit both a MWD and an LSE without compromising the rest of the fit and maybe a 4th mid or 3rd low (depending on racial tank preference).
I'd prefer that it can be cargo scanned. The lack of cargo scan immunity would give players another good reason (besides the covert cloak) to upgrade from this ship into a BR eventually. Besides that, as a T1 ship it's going to be much cheaper than a BR and a lot easier to get into, if it was unscannable too everyone would get one.
[Missing Link - Basic fit]
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Improved Cloaking Device II
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
2500 m/s with MWD on (350ish with it off)
9 Au warp speed
3.98 sec align
15k EHP (Omni)
2.5k m3 cargo capacity
2500 m/s with MWD on (350ish with it off)
9 Au warp speed
3.98 sec align
15k EHP (Omni)
2.5k m3 cargo capacity
Even when fit for speed a Sigil's normal space speed is still only about half that of a BR. Way too slow.
It's warp speed is only 4.5 Au base and 7.06 Au with 3x HVO-Is. Not bad but still not fast enough.
It can't get under 4 second alignment time either. That simply doesn't cut it.
A Sigil also has 4 mids, 6 lows and 3 rigs. That's quite a few more slots than a BR and it has quite a bit more PG and CPU to go with all those slots too. Consequently it can be fit for far more cargo capacity and/or far more tank. In other words, it's simply too big, too tanky and not fast enough.
What do you think, would you use this ship if it existed?
Sounds too much like a BR but a little bit worse, problem with that in eve is either it will be too op and will get used instead of BRs or BRs will be theory crafted as better and everyone will get them instead.
ReplyDeleteif anything id say go for speed on par with BRs but way lower tank and cargo capacity. Will make it better than a shuttle for quick transport, but still not something you want to fill with plex and afk to jita.
I figured the Covert Cloak, immunity to cargo scanning and somewhat better all round stats would make BRs a clear and desirable upgrade over this.
DeleteBut maybe you're right, maybe cargo and tank would both need to be significantly less than BRs. Say half the cargo 1-1.5k base, 5kish for max cargo fit and 8-10k omni tank might be more appropriate.
Actually if the cargo is NOT scannable you might be right but if it IS scannable then maybe not. If it IS scannable loading one up with PLEX and afking to Jita would be tantamount to suicide.
I see it as something BR like that a new player can get into quickly since it only requires the racial Industrial skill at I instead of V and doesn't require Industry V either. Something one can use while waiting to train the prereqs for BRs or even just to get an idea if the small, fast and elusive style of flying is for you.
For something "better than a shuttle for fast transport" I'd go with a cheap, fast T1 frigate like a Vigil or Condor. I'll post a 2 second align Vigil fit tomorrow.
DeleteI believe we already have a ship that fits the bill: exploration frigates. When I started hub trading, I used a magnate for a long time.
ReplyDelete["Tanky" Magnate]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Empty
Empty
Empty
Small Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Small Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Small Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
329 m/s without MWD
7.85 au/s
3.81 sec align
5k EHP (Omni)
1.06k m3 cargo capacity
If you swap the rigs out for Tech IIs , you can reach 8.69 au/s. Given that you are talking about carrying PLEX level prices in your hold, doesn't sound like the extra 24M would be that bad, make it up in less than a single trade. Personally prefer not trying to tank it. If you get caught, you really are just apt to just die. The fit I flew with for ages:
[Transport Magnate]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Empty
Empty
Empty
Small Low Friction Nozzle Joint II
Small Low Friction Nozzle Joint I
Small Cargohold Optimization I
2580 m/s with MWD on (370ish with it offf)
5 au warp speed
2.63 s align
1.4K EHP (Omni)
950 m3 cargo capacity
Flew this in and out of all the major hubs every couple days for 4-5 months with billions in my hold. Only lost one, and that was on Jita on undock, was stupid enough not to be using a insta undock bookmark.
Note on the lows in the second fit. The 2.63 second align time assumes max skills. Prior to my hauler having perfect agility skills I used the Nanofiber Internal Structure II to nip under a 3s align. Once my agility skills were high enough, I swapped it out for another expanded cargohold to go over 1.2k m3 cargo capacity. Once you've skilled up "perfect" for this as a hauler, I'd then train into a blockade runner. Just about every skill used in this fit is relevant for a blockade runner, really made for a nice transition.
DeleteDecent fits though not quite what I was looking for.
DeleteThe main problem is it either has tinfoil tank making it way too susceptible to 1 shots from smartbomb gate camps and instalockers or it has almost adequate tank but no MWD. Warp speed is on the low side on the MWD fit too.
Alignment time is very good (more than enough). Cargo capacity is more than adequate for my own use though in the original post I was thinking of others who might want to use it to haul somewhat larger cargos too.
I actually looked at doing something similar with Herons a long time ago.
[Heron, Heron - Transport]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Small Shield Extender II
Small Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Improved Cloaking Device II
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Hobgoblin I x3
Less cargo capacity (only 400 m3), 5.22k tank, 5 Au warp speed, 3,361 m/s with MWD on and 2.79 second align time. The problem I have with that fit is tank, cargo capacity and warp speed are all a bit on the low side. Alignment time and normal space speed are terrific though.
To clarify things a bit. When I was still very new to the game I was constantly looking for something fast with half decent tank and cargo capacity and other than Blockade Runners they simply didn't exist.
DeleteFor new players training for Blockade Runners isn't very appealing. They take quite a while to train for, especially considering most new players aren't sure how much cargo they're going to need in the future and a BRs cargo hold is very small compared to other hauling ships.
A ship like the one I'm suggesting would be far more appealing to new players looking for something faster than other industrial ships with half decent tank and more cargo capacity than sub-cap combat ships. Something they could find right where they expect to find it (under Industrials with all the other hauling ships).
It'd also encourage new players to try flying fast, elusive haulers rather than the usual slowboats which might help with new player retention. And of course it'd be a natural lead in to Blockade Runners.
I think you either started playing a long time ago, long before the latest industrial ship balance pass, or you want something that is unattainable: the "perfect" ship.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if you want "the next best thing", one that is good at the role "but not quite as good as a Blockade Runner", you've already mentioned it: the Sigil.
I flew Sigils between trade hubs from the Odyssey expansion (when i started), and after Rubicon they became even better.
Here's my fit, straight out of EFT (I don not have perfect Industrial Ship skills; I've never needed more than Lv 3 Amarr Industrial Ship)
[Armour Sigil]
Improved Cloaking Device II
[Empty High slot]
Experimental 10MN Warpdrive I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
400mm Reinforced Steel Plate II
400mm Reinforced Steel Plate II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Thermic Membrane II
Energized Kinetic Membrane II
Energized Explosive Membrane II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
--
Cargo Hold: 2,415m3
(I used to travel with up to 5bil in rigs and T3 subsystems in this between market hubs 3x per day. Its enough space for a new player)
Tank: EHP: 32,110 - with over 60% armour resists across all damage types.
Warp Speed: 4.5 au - Considering T1 frigates warp at 5au/s, this difference isn't even felt.
Align time and speed doesn't matter in a ship running the MWD/Cloak trick. If it does matter to you, that means you're intending to afk-haul (or you intend not to "bother" with the ship-saving trouble of MWD/Cloak) . And if that is your intention while carrying multiple-Plex of goods, please let me know where you haul so I can meet you for.. uh... coffee.
If you need more space than 2.4k m3, you can deck out the low slots and get just over 10k m3 cargo space, though that will drop your EHP to about 6k. As usual, its a choice between risk and reward.
True, a Blockade Runner IS better than a Sigil, but it meant to be!
As a new player, getting into a Sigil and fitting it out to over 20k EHP will take less than 3 days (to get all the support skills, like Cloaking), and then learning and practising the MWD/Cloak trick AND how to warp to insta-undocks should take another couple of hours until they're comfortable enough with it to start hauling things of value.
Considering you're talking about flying Plex around (or things to that value), I wouldn't do it even in an Interceptor. I've only been caught twice where I messed up the MWD/Cloak and got shot at; having a tank of over 20k is more far more than any gatecamper expects and has been an amusing way of getting killrights for free.
I've been playing for a little more than 2 years now and no I don't want "the perfect ship". That'd be a Blockade Runner with twice the tank.
DeleteThe Sigil could be considered a poor man's DST, so where's the poor man's Blockade Runner?
Choosing between tank or cargo capacity when you want speed isn't a choice between risk and reward, it's a choice between bad and worse. A new player looking for a fast hauler is better off flying a frigate, almost any frigate, at least then he gets the speed even if the cargo and tank are inadequate for the job.
Or WTH, he could always do what the vast majority of new Eve players do anyhow and just quit. Then you can all go back to wondering why your wonderful game has so much trouble retaining new players. After all they're supposed to be easy targets until they catch up on skill points and years played. Which of course is impossible.
Sometimes when talking with long time Eve players I feel like I'm paddling a canoe upstream against the current... In white water.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard work and takes forever to make any progress.
Long timers are fine with ezmode garbage like bubbles, bubble immunity on interceptors, jump drives, the fleet warp command and terrible sov mechanics. Anything that's biased towards large groups and long time, high "skill" players is ok because those things give them yet another of the undeserved huge advantages they feel entitled to.
But heaven forbid new players might get a crumb tossed their way like a half decent fast hauler that doesn't have high entry costs in "skill", time and ISK.